Full Version : Islands in the river... and $800M
okmetropolis >>Inner Tulsa >>Islands in the river... and $800M


Bonsecour- 09-05-2006
Are people in Broken Arrow, OK going to be pleased to pay a new tax? How would that be done? If this development is a go, and they just attach it to Vision 2025 and increase funding like hell (like double), would Bixbyans and Sandites say yea or nay?

If there will be two low-water dams, then they could do this for the Arkansas River in Jenks, Bixby, and Broken Arrow. Maybe they get an island each. And Sand Springs could have an island too...

Would that make the good folks happy?

Spartan65- 09-05-2006
That's probably part of their plans which we'll see tomorrow. They did mention a second dam around 96th.

bombermwc- 09-05-2006
I just dont ever see it happening folks. That kind of development just doesn't fit there. That "river" smells folks, and I don't think people are going to want to deal with the view of the industrial area either. There are so many places in Tulsa that could be better developed for something like this. Putting an island in the middle of a river in Oklahoma is just stupid. You build an island when you don't have any more land...but we have plenty. The cost for something like that is so high, and will only be available to those with such high incomes. Those same people generally enjoy having yards...not apartments. Downtown living in Tulsa just isn't an attractive thing on the sort of scale it would need to be to support this concept. It's just another of those dream jobs that won't ever get done. I, for one, would hope that no public money would ever go to support something like this as the public would never get to enjoy it.

Spartan65- 09-05-2006
Well there would be civic projects on the river here, supposedly.

RAGE- 09-05-2006
I mean not the whole project would happen but maybe some of it is possible... People in Tulsa love the river but not the smell... People go to the river for retail, driving, and off course exercising...

If they want to build such a thing it would take more money but with the $100 million from private donors, you can do some work...

There are these picked signs in Tulsa, It says NO RIVER TAX

I am still trying to find who put that and why...



Spartan65- 09-05-2006
So there is already opposition to this?

RAGE- 09-05-2006
QUOTE
So there is already opposition to this?


I don’t know yet... There is a sign at 91st memorial, 91st and 129th, 91st and Riverside, and won at 11th and Harvard... That’s were I have seen them and they were put up either on Sunday or Monday...


Spartan65- 09-05-2006
I just read on TN that there's some all over BA.

RAGE- 09-05-2006
Yeah 91st and 129th is in BA that’s where I first spotted it...

Let me take a pic of it... It is funny It only say's NO River TAX





waterboy- 09-05-2006
I haven't decided if I support the new islands in the stream concept or not. But I do take issue with what has been released in the World. For what it is worth I listed some issues they will have to deal with that come from my experience running tour boats on the Arkansas for three summers.

The hidden costs of "islands in the stream".

-Cost of providing police and fire services. Will have to be dual access service from both the water and the causeways. The current services will not be able to provide for an inner city lake and insurance companies are going to notice that. If private boats are allowed, plan for major increases in police and fire rescue operations.

-Since the river is now a navigable waterway with ports along its 10 mile length, it will come under the auspices of the US Coast Guard. Yet another layer of bureauracracy added to: Levee district, Highway patrol lakeshore division, Tulsa County Sheriff, TPD, River Parks Authority, City of Sand Springs to name a few. This is no small thing. Coast Guard regs are serious stuff and expensive to meet.

-The refinery will have to be closed, moved, blown up...something. Not only will the water rise over its banks but its smell and lovely visage won't be accepted by multi-use affluent tenants on the islands.

-the loss of refinery jobs will reverberate through West tulsa. No need for the storage tank farms either so plan on paying Sunoco, Texaco, and the tank farm owners big $ for their now valuable lake front property.

-Re-routing or removal of oil pipelines, sanitary sewer lines and electrical lines that criss cross the river in that area. One high voltage line that crosses is already just 6ft off the water during evening flows.

-Private land buyouts. One property owner along the river in that area has a deed showing ownership of three islands granted to him by the Corps when the dam was built. Think he'll sell cheap? And he is one of many private owners along there who will need to be bought out or reimbursed for increased insurance costs.

-Two of the industrial owners along that stretch are Baker Petrolite who manufactures the explosives used in well drilling and the Sand Springs sewage treatment plant. Increased water levels will require strengthening and raising the levees there. One wonders about the logic of having explosive compounds near a levee.

-When Creek indians were chased by Confederate soldiers across this area from the west, they were cornered by the troops in the area where the Sun refinery now sits. The rebs, thinking they had them captured because of the river nearby, camped out for the evening and planned to finish up in the morning. When they awakened, the indians were gone. Having hunted and fished the area, the Indians knew about the rock crossing at that point. It is a slip fault that creates a small set of rapids that goes all the way across the river. They literally, "knew where the rocks were" and walked across during the night. Later settlers used the outcropping as the only sure place to cross the river. When the water is up they make fantastic kayaking waves. This history and this opportunity for pleasure will now be at least 10 ft under water.

-It has been reported that there is a potential pre-historic mammoth pit in the area also but no attempts have been made to explore it as to not risk a possible oil spill from old refinery operations.

I would love to operate deep water craft in this lake. Of course it won't stay deep for very long, but the positives are obvious. These are some of the costs that are not apparent at first glance. They will become all too real if such a large dam is built.

There are more, but why give them too much for free? okmetropolis/Suave_anim.gif

Bonsecour- 09-05-2006
Yo, good post! How many jobs are at the refineries, exactly?

Spartan65- 09-05-2006
QUOTE
-Cost of providing police and fire services. Will have to be dual access service from both the water and the causeways. The current services will not be able to provide for an inner city lake and insurance companies are going to notice that. If private boats are allowed, plan for major increases in police and fire rescue operations.


There's a fire station right off Denver, a few blocks north of 21st, and it's not too far from other police stations either. I don't see how developing a little further int the river is any differant than development out in the suburbs. But I can see where several dense high-rise clusters could put strain on the system.

QUOTE
-Since the river is now a navigable waterway with ports along its 10 mile length, it will come under the auspices of the US Coast Guard. Yet another layer of bureauracracy added to: Levee district, Highway patrol lakeshore division, Tulsa County Sheriff, TPD, River Parks Authority, City of Sand Springs to name a few. This is no small thing. Coast Guard regs are serious stuff and expensive to meet.


I thought that the shipping lines stopped at Catoosa. I did hear that Wichita wanted to be included on the list of inland port cities, but this didn't seem likely and I don't think it would be good for Tulsa, considering Tulsa is one of if not THE further inland port.

QUOTE
-The refinery will have to be closed, moved, blown up...something. Not only will the water rise over its banks but its smell and lovely visage won't be accepted by multi-use affluent tenants on the islands.


There is no doubt about this one, and no questions because I hear you loud and clear. It's an interesting thought though, if whether having the refineries there, as vital as they are, means that the river by downtown can not be developed.

QUOTE
-Re-routing or removal of oil pipelines, sanitary sewer lines and electrical lines that criss cross the river in that area. One high voltage line that crosses is already just 6ft off the water during evening flows.


How expensive is that though? It can't be that much, although I'm sure the oil companies will pull a fast one on us, "And this is a FOX News update! Oil pipelines is currently being relocated in the middle of the Arkansas River in downtown Tulsa, Oklahoma. Expect consumers to feal a pinch."

QUOTE
-Private land buyouts. One property owner along the river in that area has a deed showing ownership of three islands granted to him by the Corps when the dam was built. Think he'll sell cheap? And he is one of many private owners along there who will need to be bought out or reimbursed for increased insurance costs.


Hey, isn't that what eminent domain is for? okmetropolis/028.gif

QUOTE
-Two of the industrial owners along that stretch are Baker Petrolite who manufactures the explosives used in well drilling and the Sand Springs sewage treatment plant. Increased water levels will require strengthening and raising the levees there. One wonders about the logic of having explosive compounds near a levee.


Those will probably have to be moved.

QUOTE
-When Creek indians were chased by Confederate soldiers across this area from the west, they were cornered by the troops in the area where the Sun refinery now sits. The rebs, thinking they had them captured because of the river nearby, camped out for the evening and planned to finish up in the morning. When they awakened, the indians were gone. Having hunted and fished the area, the Indians knew about the rock crossing at that point. It is a slip fault that creates a small set of rapids that goes all the way across the river. They literally, "knew where the rocks were" and walked across during the night. Later settlers used the outcropping as the only sure place to cross the river. When the water is up they make fantastic kayaking waves. This history and this opportunity for pleasure will now be at least 10 ft under water.


okmetropolis/good.gif

QUOTE
-It has been reported that there is a potential pre-historic mammoth pit in the area also but no attempts have been made to explore it as to not risk a possible oil spill from old refinery operations.


So what do you do in that case?

QUOTE
I would love to operate deep water craft in this lake. Of course it won't stay deep for very long, but the positives are obvious. These are some of the costs that are not apparent at first glance. They will become all too real if such a large dam is built.


Sounds like $600M to me. okmetropolis/dontknow.gif

RAGE- 09-05-2006
Wow welcome back waterboy...

QUOTE
The refinery will have to be closed, moved, blown up...something. Not only will the water rise over its banks but its smell and lovely visage won't be accepted by multi-use affluent tenants on the islands.


Yes, even tough I like seeing them when driving on highway 75, they need to be torn up and the land cleaned and used to its potential...

The smell is awful... You get a mouthful driving down Riverside with your windows down laugh.gif


Alright tomorrow well tell what they have in store for us...

It well hit the TV media first then the Tulsa World breaks it down on Thursday...


RAGE- 09-05-2006
River Development Plan Drawing Opposition Before Its Unveiling
Tuesday September 05, 2006 KTUL


Tulsa - By now you've likely heard of a new project to develop the Arkansas River. It's set to be officially unveiled Wednesday. But, as NewsChannel 8's Burt Mummolo reports, opposition has already sprouted up.

The main reason for the opposition is no new taxes. Opponents say Tulsa has enough to work on without asking taxpayers for a half a billion dollar island.

The bird's eye view of the river was pretty standard -- a kayaker, an old tire, another bird. It's what's happening on the banks that is ruffling feathers.

"We just want to wake up Tulsans that someone is reaching for their wallets," says Dan Hicks, who was out planting signs at major intersections, opposing a major plan to build an island in the Arkansas River, in part to draw young professionals.

"What attracts young professionals are good paying jobs, not islands in the stream," Hicks says.

"You know, it's interesting that you would see opposition for a proposal that really has not been proposed," says Tulsa County Commissioner Randi MIller, who was meeting with seven local mayors Tuesday on the even of the plan's official unveiling.

"What you have to do is look at the big picture and know how important it is to be able to put your city on the map to recruit business here," Miller says.

But, Hicks says getting back to basics will brighten the big picture.

"Let's fix our streets, fight crime and fix failing schools," Hicks says. "And, if we do that, it will bring along the economic growth which will provide the jobs which is ultimately what brings young professionals to a city."

On the Riverparks jogging trail, Bill Pierce, who just moved to Tulsa from Alaska, says go for it.

"The influx of money here, short term to the long term draw on it, it's irreplaceable," he says.

It's that kind of attitude officials hope will give the plan a leg to stand on.

Wednesday is a very big day for the group who came up with the idea. They will officially unveil their plan for the first time in great detail at 10:30 a.m.


So those are the people doing that sign thing...


RAGE- 09-05-2006
QUOTE
The main reason for the opposition is no new taxes. Opponents say Tulsa has enough to work on without asking taxpayers for a half a billion dollar island.


They have'nt even asked for tax money yet...




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